{"id":54069,"date":"2019-12-17T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2019-12-16T21:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/prohoster.info\/blog\/blog_prohoster\/kubernetes-eto-novyj-linux-intervyu-s-pavlom-selivanovym"},"modified":"2020-02-18T14:02:02","modified_gmt":"2020-02-18T11:02:02","slug":"kubernetes-eto-novyj-linux-intervyu-s-pavlom-selivanovym","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/prohoster.info\/cs\/blog\/administrirovanie\/kubernetes-eto-novyj-linux-intervyu-s-pavlom-selivanovym","title":{"rendered":"Kubernetes \u2013 je to nov\u00fd Linux? Rozhovor s Pavlem Selivanovem","gt_translate_keys":[{"key":"rendered","format":"text"}]},"content":{"rendered":"

\r\n \"P\u0159ehr\u00e1t\r\n
<\/div>\r\n <\/div><\/center>
\nV\u00fdklad:
\nAzat Khadiev: Dobr\u00fd den. Jmenuji se Azat Khadiev a jsem v\u00fdvoj\u00e1\u0159 v oblasti PaaS spole\u010dnosti Mail.ru Cloud Solutions. Dnes je se mnou Pavel Selivanov ze spole\u010dnosti Southbridge. Jsme na konferenci DevOpsDays. On zde vystoup\u00ed s p\u0159edn\u00e1\u0161kou o tom, \u017ee s Kubernetes lze vybudovat DevOps, ale pravd\u011bpodobn\u011b se v\u00e1m to nepoda\u0159\u00ed. Pro\u010d je t\u00e9ma tak temn\u00e9?
\n<\/a><\/noindex>
\nPavel Selivanov: Nen\u00ed to ve skute\u010dnosti temn\u00e9. Je to o tom, \u017ee mnoh\u00e9 probl\u00e9my v na\u0161\u00ed komunit\u011b se sna\u017e\u00edme \u0159e\u0161it pomoc\u00ed technologi\u00ed, a p\u0159itom se to sna\u017e\u00edme d\u011blat dosti jednostrann\u011b. Kubernetes je pr\u00e1v\u011b takov\u00e1 v\u011bc, za kterou odpov\u00eddaj\u00ed, d\u00e1 se \u0159\u00edci, Ops. Ale m\u00e1me skv\u011bl\u00fd pojem DevOps in\u017een\u00fdr. Ten odpov\u00edd\u00e1 za Kubernetes. P\u0159i\u010dem\u017e... \u0158\u00edkaj\u00ed v\u00e1m, abyste ud\u011blali Kubernetes, a v\u00fdvoj\u00e1\u0159i v\u016fbec nev\u011bd\u00ed, co v\u0161e kubernetes nab\u00edz\u00ed \u2014 a p\u0159esto pro n\u011b v\u0161echno funguje tak, jak bylo p\u0159edt\u00edm. A to navzdory tomu, \u017ee Kubernetes obsahuje hotov\u00e1 \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed a n\u00e1stroje, kter\u00e9 umo\u017e\u0148uj\u00ed s touto technologi\u00ed roz\u0161i\u0159ovat p\u0159\u00edstup DevOps a komunikaci mezi Dev a Ops. Tuto mo\u017enost velmi m\u00e1lo vyu\u017e\u00edv\u00e1me. Proto\u017ee i st\u00e1vaj\u00edc\u00ed struktury p\u0159ev\u00e1d\u00edme na v\u0161echny tyto n\u00e1stroje DevOps \u2014 Docker, Kubernetes, cloud atd. \u2014 situaci jen zhor\u0161ujeme. A n\u00e1stroje za\u010d\u00edn\u00e1me pou\u017e\u00edvat jinak, ne\u017e byly zam\u00fd\u0161leny. A kolem v\u0161ech t\u011bchto technologi\u00ed se stav\u00ed opravdu d\u011bsiv\u00e9 kostry. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: Rozum\u00edm. Je jasn\u00e9, \u017ee t\u00e9ma je obrovsk\u00e9. Co si mysl\u00ed\u0161, jak\u00fd je nejb\u011b\u017en\u011bj\u0161\u00ed probl\u00e9m firem nyn\u00ed? S Kubernetes.<\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Nej\u010dast\u011bj\u0161\u00edm probl\u00e9mem s Kubernetes je nedostatek kompetenc\u00ed. V IT je to b\u011b\u017en\u00fd probl\u00e9m. V\u017edy chyb\u00ed specialist\u00e9. V\u017edy chyb\u00ed kompetence. A te\u010f s Kubernetes chyb\u00ed kompetence. A p\u0159itom je na tr\u017ei\u0161ti m\u00e1lo hotov\u00fdch \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed, kter\u00e1 by umo\u017enila z\u00edskat Kubernetes, ale p\u0159itom nem\u00edt pot\u0159ebn\u00e9 kompetence. A ty, kter\u00e9 existuj\u00ed, vzbuzuj\u00ed ot\u00e1zky. St\u00e1le hled\u00e1me lidi, kte\u0159\u00ed se v Kubernetes vyznaj\u00ed. Sna\u017e\u00edme se v\u00fdvoj p\u0159izp\u016fsobit tomu. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: A vzhledem k aktu\u00e1ln\u00edmu nedostatku pracovn\u00edch sil v IT. Kter\u00fd tu v\u017edy byl. A te\u010f je. Co si o tom mysl\u00ed\u0161, jak se v t\u011bchto podm\u00ednk\u00e1ch \u017e\u00edt? Jak\u00e9 jsou tipy a triky? <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Tipy a triky. Za prv\u00e9, pokud jde o cloudov\u00e1 \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed, tip vypad\u00e1 takto \u2014 co kdybyste n\u00e1m p\u0159edali \u010d\u00e1st sv\u00fdch kompetenc\u00ed. A my si je vezmeme. A budeme to \u0159e\u0161it intern\u011b. A to je fajn. Krom\u011b toho, \u017ee je d\u016fle\u017eit\u00e9 pochopit pro ty, kdo t\u00edmto disponuj\u00ed\u2026 To je ve skute\u010dnosti skv\u011bl\u00fd moment\u2026 Ale je d\u016fle\u017eit\u00e9 si uv\u011bdomit, \u017ee kdy\u017e p\u0159ed\u00e1v\u00e1te \u010d\u00e1st sv\u00fdch kompetenc\u00ed do cloudu nebo poskytovateli, dost\u00e1v\u00e1me univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed. Zjednodu\u0161en\u011b \u0159e\u010deno, m\u00e1me datab\u00e1zi, kter\u00e1 vykon\u00e1v\u00e1 velmi specifick\u00e9 \u00fakoly, a byla velmi specificky nastavena. Kdy\u017e tuto datab\u00e1zi d\u00e1me do cloudu, samoz\u0159ejm\u011b m\u016f\u017eeme propustit administr\u00e1tora, kter\u00fd se p\u0159edt\u00edm staral o datab\u00e1zov\u00e9 clustry \u2014 tot\u00e9\u017e ud\u011bl\u00e1 za n\u00e1s Amazon nebo Google. Ale Amazon nebo Google n\u00e1m tak\u00e9 nedovol\u00ed p\u0159esn\u011b nastavit na\u0161i datab\u00e1zi. Velk\u00e9 projekty, velk\u00e9 spole\u010dnosti \u2014 v ka\u017ed\u00e9m p\u0159\u00edpad\u011b se dost\u00e1vaj\u00ed k tomu, \u017ee v ur\u010dit\u00e9m okam\u017eiku pou\u017e\u00edvaj\u00ed cloudov\u00e1 \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed, a pot\u00e9 se v\u017edy vracej\u00ed zp\u011bt k tomu, aby si vzali kompetence zp\u011bt, proto\u017ee je pot\u0159eba v\u011bt\u0161\u00ed specifikace.<\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: Jsou univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed \u0161patn\u00e1, nebo lze na nich postavit v\u00edce? <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Ne, univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed rozhodn\u011b nejsou \u0161patn\u00e1. Univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed jsou dobr\u00e1. Jen univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed\u2026 jsou univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed. Je d\u016fle\u017eit\u00e9 to pochopit. Je to jako vz\u00edt obecn\u00fd skript\u2026 Pokud kolem tohoto obecn\u00e9ho skriptu, obecn\u00e9ho pou\u017eit\u00ed dok\u00e1\u017ee\u0161 postavit celou logiku fungov\u00e1n\u00ed firmy \u2014 je to skv\u011bl\u00e9. Ale pokud je logika fungov\u00e1n\u00ed jin\u00e1 a bere\u0161 to univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed, univerz\u00e1ln\u00ed skript \u2014 a sna\u017e\u00ed\u0161 se to nat\u00e1hnout, jako sova na gl\u00f3bus, to je \u0161patn\u00e9. V samotn\u00e9m univerzalismu nen\u00ed nic \u0161patn\u00e9ho. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: Pokud m\u00e1\u0161 administr\u00e1tora, kter\u00fd u\u017e pracuje, probl\u00e9m nen\u00ed v jeho propu\u0161t\u011bn\u00ed. On toho prost\u011b zvl\u00e1dne v\u00edc. <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Ano, vz\u00edt mu rutinu a p\u0159edat ji n\u011bkomu jin\u00e9mu, aby to d\u011blali tam n\u011bkde. To je bezpochyby dobr\u00fd p\u0159\u00edstup. D\u016fle\u017eit\u00fd moment je, jestli to standardn\u00ed \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed vyhovuje konkr\u00e9tn\u00edmu p\u0159\u00edpadu. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadieva: Z prost\u00e9ho pohledu ze sv\u00e9ho zku\u0161enosti vid\u00edm, \u017ee mnoho firem d\u011bl\u00e1 to sam\u00e9. Nastavuj\u00ed Kubernetes klastr a p\u0159em\u00fd\u0161lej\u00ed o jeho \u0161k\u00e1lov\u00e1n\u00ed. A v\u0161echny tyto operace jsou velmi opakovateln\u00e9. <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Ano, bezpochyby. Zvl\u00e1\u0161\u0165, kdy\u017e vezmeme konkr\u00e9tn\u011b Kubernetes, je tu takov\u00fd probl\u00e9m, \u017ee na trhu je nyn\u00ed opravdu m\u00e1lo hlubok\u00fdch a dobr\u00fdch znalost\u00ed o Kubernetes. A Kubernetes je takov\u00fd obrovsk\u00fd konstrukt\u00e9r, \u017ee pokud ho vezmete do firmy, bu\u010fte p\u0159ipraveni vz\u00edt si spolu s n\u00edm in\u017een\u00fdra, kter\u00fd se na pln\u00fd \u00favazek bude v\u0161\u00edm t\u00edmto zab\u00fdvat. A to je drah\u00e9. A takov\u00e9ho in\u017een\u00fdra je\u0161t\u011b zkuste naj\u00edt. Pokud mluv\u00edm o sob\u011b, nem\u00e1m r\u00e1d \u017e\u00e1dn\u00e1 cloudov\u00e1 \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed, proto\u017ee dost dob\u0159e a hluboce rozum\u00edm, jak Kubernetes funguje. A \u010dasto mi v cloudech chyb\u00ed n\u011bjak\u00e1 funk\u010dnost, o kterou \u017e\u00e1d\u00e1m \u2013 a oni mi \u0159\u00edkaj\u00ed \"Ne, to nejde\". No, v takov\u00e9m p\u0159\u00edpad\u011b promi\u0148te, ale j\u00e1 mohu ud\u011blat l\u00e9pe ne\u017e cloud. Ale z\u00e1rove\u0148, pokud nem\u00e1te in\u017een\u00fdra na pln\u00fd \u00favazek, nem\u00e1te chu\u0165 platit za tohoto in\u017een\u00fdra, kter\u00fd spravuje Kubernetes, a vy mu neust\u00e1le plat\u00edte hodn\u011b pen\u011bz, aby jen experimentoval, pak cloud je prost\u011b skv\u011bl\u00e9 \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed. Proto\u017ee tam alespo\u0148 pracuj\u00ed lid\u00e9, kter\u00e9 provider u\u017e najal. A ti se vyznaj\u00ed v tom, co d\u011blaj\u00ed. A ty z\u00e1kladn\u00ed v\u011bci, kter\u00e9 pot\u0159ebujete na ka\u017edodenn\u00ed b\u00e1zi, tam jsou.<\/p>\n

Azat Khadieva: Jak si mysl\u00ed\u0161 o sou\u010dasn\u00e9m stavu Kubernetes? Co s n\u00edm bude za p\u011bt a za deset let?<\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Dobr\u00fd dotaz. V\u00edm, co se v na\u0161\u00ed komunit\u011b d\u011bje ohledn\u011b tohoto t\u00e9matu. N\u011bkte\u0159\u00ed lid\u00e9 v\u011b\u0159\u00ed, \u017ee krom\u011b Kubernetes u\u017e nic jin\u00e9ho z\u016fstane. Situace, kter\u00e1 se d\u00e1vno odehr\u00e1la s linuxy. To znamen\u00e1, \u017ee mimo Linux existuj\u00ed lid\u00e9, kte\u0159\u00ed \u017eij\u00ed na BSD, pravd\u011bpodobn\u011b maj\u00ed velmi specifick\u00e9 \u00fakoly. Jsou lid\u00e9, kte\u0159\u00ed pracuj\u00ed pod Windows \u2014 windows servery \u2014 pravd\u011bpodobn\u011b maj\u00ed tak\u00e9 specifick\u00e9 \u00fakoly, nebo maj\u00ed prost\u011b kompetenci v t\u00e9to oblasti a necht\u011bj\u00ed odtud odch\u00e1zet. V ka\u017ed\u00e9m p\u0159\u00edpad\u011b je standardem v na\u0161\u00ed sf\u00e9\u0159e Linux. Existuje n\u00e1zor, \u017ee Kubernetes se stane takov\u00fdm de facto standardem, a krom\u011b Kubernetes nic dal\u0161\u00edho nebude. Kubernetes bude \u0159\u00eddit nejen aplikace, jejich nasazen\u00ed, deployment a \u0161k\u00e1lov\u00e1n\u00ed. Opravdu v\u0161\u00edm. Ji\u017e se ptaj\u00ed: \"Je mo\u017en\u00e9 do Kubernetes nacpat datab\u00e1zi?\" Obvykle \u0159\u00edk\u00e1m, \u017ee ot\u00e1zka nen\u00ed v Kubernetes, ale v Dockeru. Pokud jste p\u0159ipraveni na to, \u017ee va\u0161e datab\u00e1ze bude fungovat v kontejnerech, jak bude pracovat. Odpov\u00eddaj\u00ed mi: \"Ne-ne-ne, po\u010dkejte. V kontejnerech to nepot\u0159ebujeme. Pot\u0159ebujeme to v Kubernetes. P\u0159ipoj\u00edme ji k nodu. To znamen\u00e1, \u017ee v\u0161echno bude, jak m\u00e1me te\u010f, jen v\u0161\u00edm t\u00edm bude \u0159\u00eddit Kubernetes.\" A to je ve skute\u010dnosti dobr\u00fd n\u00e1pad. To znamen\u00e1, \u017ee Kubernetes je takov\u00e1 v\u011bc, kdy m\u016f\u017ee p\u0159ij\u00edt do firmy, pokud m\u00e1 firma Kubernetes a na n\u011bm postaven\u00e9 procesy, tak \u010dlov\u011bku, kter\u00fd se v tom vyzn\u00e1 \u2014 sta\u010d\u00ed se pod\u00edvat p\u00e1r dn\u00ed, aby \u0159ekl: \"Jsem p\u0159ipraven v\u00e1s podporovat. Kompletn\u011b. \u00dapln\u011b. Pochopil jsem, jak to u v\u00e1s funguje.\" Na rozd\u00edl od p\u0159\u00edstup\u016f bez Kubernetes \u2014 tady jsou jedny klacky, tady dal\u0161\u00ed klacky. Tady Ansible, tady Terraform. N\u011bkdo to v\u0161echno napsal a trv\u00e1 p\u016fl roku, ne\u017e se v tom vyzn\u00e1te. Tak\u017ee zda se Kubernetes stane de facto standardem, nev\u00edm. V sou\u010dasnosti vypad\u00e1 mnohem ambici\u00f3zn\u011bji a sebejist\u011bji ne\u017e \u0159e\u0161en\u00ed, kter\u00e1 kolem n\u011bj existuj\u00ed. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadieff: No, srovn\u00e1n\u00ed s Linuxem je docela odv\u00e1\u017en\u00e9. On toti\u017e funguje na jednom stroji \u2014 a to je v\u0161echno. A Kubernetes funguje na mnoha stroj\u00edch. Okam\u017eit\u011b vznik\u00e1 milion variac\u00ed, p\u0159\u00ed\u010din. Ano, to je odv\u00e1\u017en\u00e9. Jen kdy\u017e vezmeme v \u00favahu, \u017ee m\u00e1 konkurenty t\u00e9to paradigmatu. Nap\u0159\u00edklad Serverless. Je Kubernetes v ohro\u017een\u00ed p\u0159ed takov\u00fdmi konkurenty? <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Od Serverless\u2026 (sm\u00edch) Serverless \u2014 my p\u0159ece jen ch\u00e1peme, \u017ee serveru<\/a> p\u0159ece jen existuj\u00ed. Ned\u00e1vno jsem sly\u0161el p\u0159edn\u00e1\u0161ku, kde jeden \u010dlov\u011bk \u0159ekl, \u017ee servery p\u0159ece jen existuj\u00ed \u2014 a to je cloud. Ale mus\u00edme v\u017edy ch\u00e1pat, \u017ee v cloudu jsou tak\u00e9 servery. Tam stoj\u00ed skute\u010dn\u00e9 fyzick\u00e9 servery, racky, a jsou n\u011bkde nainstalov\u00e1ny. To je ten cloud. Nad t\u00edm existuje Serverless, kde servery<\/a> \u201ene\u201c. Tak\u017ee ot\u00e1zka je, zda Serverless ovl\u00e1dne Kubernetes? Domn\u00edv\u00e1m se, \u017ee Serverless se p\u0159esune na Kubernetes. Pro poskytovatele, kte\u0159\u00ed nab\u00edzej\u00ed Serverless, je Kubernetes velmi pohodln\u00e1 platforma, aby to mohli poskytovat. Ano, mo\u017en\u00e1 v n\u011bjak\u00e9m okam\u017eiku p\u0159estaneme mluvit o Kubernetes jako o b\u011b\u017en\u00e9m v\u00fdvoji obchodn\u00edch aplikac\u00ed. Ale kdesi v hloubce, budou m\u00edt poskytovatel\u00e9 a in\u017een\u00fd\u0159i Kubernetes, kde se to v\u0161e realizuje. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: Trochu jin\u00e1 t\u00e9ma. Existuje takov\u00fd pojem jako fullstack in\u017een\u00fdr. Co si o nich mysl\u00ed\u0161? Opravdu existuj\u00ed? <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Eh\u2026 Fullstack in\u017een\u00fdr\u2026 No, mysl\u00edm, \u017ee bychom m\u011bli rozli\u0161ovat tyto v\u011bci o tom, \u017ee\u2026 V\u00ed\u0161, existuje takov\u00e1 v\u011bc jako T-shaped people. Jsou takov\u00ed lid\u00e9 v dne\u0161n\u00edm pr\u016fmyslu pot\u0159ebn\u00ed? Ano, bezpochyby. Pot\u0159ebujeme lidi, kte\u0159\u00ed maj\u00ed \u0161irok\u00fd rozhled, ale p\u0159itom jsou specialist\u00e9 v n\u011bjak\u00e9 \u00fazk\u00e9 oblasti. A zde je Fullstack in\u017een\u00fdr to sam\u00e9 \u2014 \u010dlov\u011bk, kter\u00fd d\u011bl\u00e1 v\u0161echno. Za\u010d\u00ednaje v\u00fdvojem frontend, testov\u00e1n\u00edm, backendem, servery a v\u0161\u00edm ostatn\u00edm. Nev\u00edm, \u017ee v velk\u00e9 firm\u011b by t\u00edm mohl b\u00fdt pov\u011b\u0159en jeden \u010dlov\u011bk, ani\u017e by m\u011bl \u00fazk\u00e9 specializace v ka\u017ed\u00e9m z parametr\u016f. Ale p\u0159itom, pouze s \u00fazkou specializac\u00ed, jako \u017ee okolo toho, co se d\u011bje, nev\u00edm nic \u2014 to tak\u00e9 v modern\u00edm sv\u011bt\u011b nefunguje. Tak bych \u0159ekl... slovo Fullstack bych opustil. Pot\u0159ebujeme velmi in\u017een\u00fdry. Pot\u0159ebujeme DevOps. M\u00e1m pocit, \u017ee brzy p\u0159ehodnot\u00edme tento moment. A ti nebudou pot\u0159eba. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: M\u016f\u017ee\u0161 to rozv\u00e9st? <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Mysl\u00edm, \u017ee v pr\u016fmyslu dojdeme k tomu, \u017ee role Dev a Ops brzy zaniknou. Pokud pot\u0159ebujeme specialisty a hled\u00e1me... Pot\u0159ebujeme ur\u010dit\u00e9ho v\u00fdvoj\u00e1\u0159e, pot\u0159ebujeme takov\u00e9 administr\u00e1tory, pot\u0159ebujeme DevOps in\u017een\u00fdry \u2014 te\u010f u\u017e je m\u00e1me, brzy p\u0159ijdou tak\u00e9 in\u017een\u00fd\u0159i pro produkci, SRE in\u017een\u00fd\u0159i. I kdy\u017e ve skute\u010dnosti to, co pot\u0159ebujeme, jsou in\u017een\u00fd\u0159i, kter\u00e9 chceme zam\u011bstnat. Pozad\u00ed vlastn\u011b nen\u00ed d\u016fle\u017eit\u00e9. Proto\u017ee... Nap\u0159\u00edklad SRE \u0159\u00edk\u00e1, \u017ee probl\u00e9my s infrastrukturou jsou v\u017edy softwarov\u00e9. A co... Poj\u010fme br\u00e1t v\u00fdvoj\u00e1\u0159e \u2014 z pohledu, \u017ee v\u00fdvoj\u00e1\u0159 je in\u017een\u00fdr \u2014 posad\u00edme je do odd\u011blen\u00ed podpory a oni budou tyto probl\u00e9my \u0159e\u0161it p\u0159esn\u011b tak, jak \u0159e\u0161\u00ed obchodn\u00ed probl\u00e9my pomoc\u00ed k\u00f3du, pomoc\u00ed in\u017een\u00fdrstv\u00ed, jak\u00e9koliv. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: A z tohoto pohledu... Jak pohovorovat s takov\u00fdmi in\u017een\u00fdry? <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Oh, that's a good question. It probably lies beyond what I understand in this life. But I would give an example. It has nothing to do with the interview. This is about our education system in Russia. In IT, we know that our education system in Russia is very outdated for the IT world; it is not what it should be. I\u2019m talking generally about the vastness of Russia \u2014 and what is happening there. People graduate who are absolutely not ready to step into web development or a technology company the day after graduation. And that's a problem. We teach them some strange things when we should be teaching them how to develop for Android, for iOS, how to use Git, and all of that. In reality, it seems that we do not. College is a time when parents mostly pay for you. For your whole life. And you can dedicate five years of your life to study in depth. And study all this T-shaped knowledge. When you can learn in college what version control systems are, what kinds of development patterns exist, how to test all that, what databases there are, and load balancers. And when you go to work, you start to delve into a specific area. And this way we get engineers. And our education system in Russia is much closer to this truth than we think. We are given a good mathematical foundation, a solid algorithmic grounding, and some understanding of programming languages. And concerning the interview, it seems something similar to that. We need to interview engineers. We need the top part of the letter T in T-shaped. Because they will gain the vertical part of the letter T. <\/p>\n

Azat Khadiev: Yes, interesting. For five years after college, I thought my education was rather strange and inadequate. But then, as I encountered deeper tasks and larger projects at work, I realized that no, I was taught very important things. Pavel, thank you. It was very interesting to hear your answers. Let\u2019s listen to your presentation. <\/p>\n

Pavel Selivanov: Thank you.
\n
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