I talked to Hey CTO David Hansson. He is known to the Russian audience as a Ruby on Rails developer and co-founder of Basecamp. We talked about blocking Hey updates in the App Store (), service development progress, and data privacy.
on twitter
What happened
Post service from the developers Basecamp appeared in the App Store on June 15 and hit the headlines almost immediately . The fact is that shortly after the release, a corrective patch was released for the application, but Apple specialists .
They also threatened to remove the email client from the store. According to them, the developers of Hey violated paragraph 3.1.1 of the rules and did not use the In-App Purchase API mechanism to sell subscriptions. In this case, the corporation receives 30% commission from each transaction.
Apple sees no need to even justify these discrepancies, because this is what ultimate market power affords you. Apple's review literally said on the phone, when we raised these objections: "We are not going to talk about other apps". Abusive is case by case.
- DHH (@dhh)
The app was created by Jason Fried and David Hansson () disagreed with this requirement. They insisted that the relevant clause did not apply in their case, since Hey users pay for a subscription on the official website, and use the mobile application only to log in. Spotify and Netflix work in a similar way.
With the result that
The trial went on for several weeks and ended at the end of June. Apple finally , but to do that Hey had to add a new free service to bypass the requirement for in-app purchases. Now users can create a temporary email box for 14 days.
Corporation representatives (before ) Also , which will stop delaying app security updates and allow you to appeal a specific store policy violation.
Despite an intermediate victory, David Hansson was not happy with the decision. He believes that in the future, the "apple corporation" can continue to use its dominant position in the market to "pressure" application developers at its discretion.
We discussed the situation to clarify some points and plans for the development of Hey.
The history of the App Store is still widely discussed. What "workarounds" did you consider when Apple refused to release the first update? How does the situation with in-app purchases develop after your update has been approved? Can we expect any changes in the field in terms of regulation?
We finally got the right to publish the application in the App Store without in-app purchases and a commission of 30%. True, for this we were forced to offer an alternative free service, which I am not very pleased with. But nothing can be done. Although now Apple practices are actively studying European and American regulators.
Question and answer: English
1. The App Store situation is still getting a lot of attention, so let's start there. What workarounds did you and your team consider when Apple first refused to publish the update? How has the IAP dispute progressed now that the update is approved? What regulatory developments should we expect in the near future?We've finally won a definitive right to exist in the App Store without paying the 30% fee or offering IAP. We had to offer a different free service, which I do not love, but so it goes. Apple is facing intense scrutiny in both the EU and US right now.
Here DHH is referring to the investigations by the US Department of Justice and the European Commission, which began at the end of June. Their task whether Apple's policies are "selective" and vary from company to company. The European regulator first rulings. Stores are required to notify developers of their intention to remove the application in 30 days, indicating the reasons. They should also rewrite the rules of the court in plain and understandable language.
New EU regulations on App Stores launched:
β All app removals must come with a 30-day notice, clear reasoning, and option to appeal.
β Ranking in top charts must be transparent.
- Reveal any differential treatment on sweetheart deals.
β Plan term language.- DHH (@dhh)
At WWDC, they said that they would provide an opportunity to appeal specific violations of the requirements of the App Store. Do you think this is enough to level the playing field for small developers? Will products like Hey be able to compete with giants like Gmail (G Suite) and Netflix.
No way, it was a tiny, nominal step forward. But I hope that it will become an impetus in the process of leveling the playing field for all players.
Question and answer: English
2. Do you believe that Apple's pre-WWDC decision to overhaul the way they handle appeals is enough to level the playing field for smaller developers? Will products such as HEY finally get the chance to compete against the likes of Gmail (G Suite) and Netflix?Absolutely not. It was a very small, almost token, step forward. But hopefully it's the start of actually doing the work to level the playing field.
Did the scandal affect the development team? Not every day everyone talks about your productβ¦ Please tell us about these specialists β do some of them overlap with those who work on Basecamp? How did you recruit developers and do you plan to expand the staff?
It was a tough first two weeks, filled with worry and overwork. Not the most fun time, and I'm glad that everything is behind. The team behind Basecamp is working on Hey. But as our mail service has become a success, we plan to hire new employees in the coming months. All vacancies will be posted on .
Question and answer: English
3. Has this publicity impacted the morale of your engineering team? It's not every day that seemingly everyone is talking about your product⦠Could you tell me more about the engineering team? Does it in any way overlap with the team behind Basecamp? Are there people working on both products at once? Did you invite any of your former colleagues to work on HEY? How did you pick the initial members of this team and how did you approach expanding it?It was a crushing first two weeks. Filled with anxiety and overwork. Not a happy time. I'm glad we're past it now. It's the same team that runs Basecamp. But now that HEY is a huge success we will be hiring quite a lot in the next few months. All postings appear on .
The last two weeks have felt like I've been playing a role in A FORTNIGHT IN THE LIFE OF A WORKAHOLIC. I'm ready to let the credits roll. I don't understand how people live like this for months. Or even years.
- DHH (@dhh)
At Basecamp that algorithmic and mathematical tasks in interviews do not help recruit developers. In particular, DHH believes that the best way to test an applicant's skills is to review the code they have written and discuss real and potential problems.
"The only reliable gauge I've found for future programmer success is looking at real code they've written, talking through bigger picture issues, and, if all that is swell, trying them out for size",
- DHH (@dhh)
As I understand it, Hey has more native UI solutions than Basecamp. Given the added complexity, how difficult was it to keep the team small? Did you say that you are using a library that generates UI elements based on WebView HTML? Did this decision help contain the growth of the state?
Yes, we will talk about our new technologies later this year. We've worked hard to ensure that Hey can be developed and maintained by a small team.
Question and answer: English
4. It is my understanding that HEY incorporates a greater number of native UI solutions compared to, say, Basecamp. Given the added complexity, has it been a challenge to keep development teams small? According to Sam Stephenson, you even built a library that generates native UI elements based on your web views' HTML. Has this decision helped reduce the number of staff?Yes, we will reveal all our new tech later this year. We worked hard to ensure that HEY could be built by a small team, and maintained too.
During an interview at Railsconf 2020, DHH that only two teams of three people are working on mobile applications for Hey. As far as technology is concerned, they library to speed up page rendering - it processes forms submitted by the user and does not require . The developers have also compiled a new library for the UI: it turns web views into menu items. In perspective release to open source.
Hey is based on simple HTML, which is a bit surprising for a modern product. You've chosen server-side rendering, but you're using several custom solutions based on innovative technologies. Do you keep your system simple to stand out from the mainstream email providers?
We don't like to complicate things, because this approach works. So much more can be done with little effort. The ability to stand out from the background of overly "complex" mail providers is just a nice bonus, but not the goal. The goal is to create a great product that our small team can be proud of.
Question and answer: English
5. HEY's focus on plain old HTML is surprising for a contemporary product. You are stuck with server-side rendering while employing a number of tailor-made solutions to benefit from modern innovations. Are you keeping things 'simple' to make a statement about the standard-breaking practices of mainstream email providers?We're keeping things simpler because it works! It allows a small team to do so much more. Making a point that modern complexity is not necessary is a nice bonus, but it's not the point. The point is to build a great product with a small team in a way where we can enjoy ourselves.
In an interview with Protocol in mid-June, David said that modern email clients are recreating from the television series Seinfeld. Allegedly, they know better what you need, and if you don't like it, then you can go somewhere else. Hey developers are trying to change this state of affairs, and if not to overcome monopolies, then at least take a step in this direction.
HEY is not just about making a better email service, it's about fighting for the very essence of email as a protocol, not a Google app. Monopolies have captured most of the internet, but email is still hanging in there⦠just barely. Now is the time to protect it!
- DHH (@dhh)
Let's talk about email sharing. You promptly disabled the feature and promised to closely monitor potential vulnerabilities in your services. What features have you already implemented to ensure the security of user data, and which ones do you plan to implement in the future?
We did not think that public links to emails could lead to abuse. We have returned to the beginning and will think about how to improve it. When releasing new features for Hey, we want to make sure that they are implemented correctly and do not violate anyone's rights.
Question and answer: English
6. Let's talk about the recent controversy surrounding the email sharing feature. You promptly disabled it and promised to be more mindful of your services' potential for abuse. What choices have you already made to ensure the security of your users' data and what further actions are you planning on taking?We hadn't thought that public link feature through from the abuse angle. So we're putting it back on the drawing board until we can do better. When something appears on hey.com, they have to be able to trust that it's done right and with consent.
We've gotten many requests for HEY family plans. With a household of five, I totally get it. But family software is harder than it looks. Who owns the data? How do you protect against spouses spying? What about kids? If<13? And how to settle in a divorce? Have to get it right.
- DHH (@dhh)
At the start, Hey allowed you to generate email links and share them with other people. At the same time, its members about it. The developers have temporarily disabled sharing to prevent abuse. It will be returned when it meets the company's internal safety standards.
Also, the authors of the mail service are already working on other security features - and "Β» opening letters. Also developers the Shield system protecting a mailbox from the messages containing aggressive speech and abuse.
You often talk about how important it is to have good communication skills when writing - especially for developers. While the in-app purchases case was going on, you've shown yourself to be a person capable of defending your point of view on Twitter.
Tell us about the exchange of ideas that led to the birth of Hey in your company? How has the product concept changed over the past few years? Are you satisfied with the results, or should we expect big changes in the future?
I have been writing posts online for almost 25 years and continue to practice. Basecamp was conceived from the very beginning as a company focused on text communication - for us this is a natural state of affairs. I think that Hey has a strong idea, but, of course, in the future we will expand and improve our product.
Question and answer: English
7. You often talk about the importance of having good written communication skills, particularly for developers. During the IAP crisis you proved yourself to be more than capable of standing your ground on Twitter. How did you organize the written exchange of ideas that led to the development of HEY? How did the product conceptually evolve over these two years? Are you happy with the results or should we expect big changes in the near future?I've been writing for the web for 25 years. I keep practicing! And we're a very writing-focused organization at Basecamp. Have been since the start. So all that came naturally. I think HEY's core vision is incredibly strong, but of course we'll expand and make things better.
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