Anton Kozubov nawo gawo lachitatu. gulu lazambiri . Tinakambirana za ntchito yake komanso zamakampani.
Mtundu wamawu: · · · · .
Mu chithunzi:
Mawu ochepa okhudza zenizeni zamakampani
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: Monga ndikudziwira, mumakumana ndi mitu yapaderadera.
Anton: Inde, pali maganizo oterowo, koma tikuyesera kupita kuzinthu zofunika kwambiri. Ngakhale kuti anthu ochulukirachulukira ali ndi chidwi ndi gawo la quantum cryptography, si gawo lotentha kwambiri la sayansi. Pali maziko abwino pano, koma ukadaulo wafika kale pamlingo wa chitukuko.
Chilichonse chinayamba kukula m'ma 80s azaka zapitazi, ndipo ndi mfundo za sayansi, nthawi yayitali yapita. Asayansi achoka pamalingaliro ndi zoyesera kupita ku zoseketsa zenizeni ndi zida zogwira ntchito mokwanira. Machitidwe otere akhalapo ku Switzerland, komwe ID Quantique imagwira ntchito. Adakhazikitsidwa mu 2005 kapena 2006, ndipo zaka khumi izi zidayamba kupereka makina owerengera ma cryptography kumabanki aku Swiss ndi Austrian. Izi sizilinso luso lamakono.
Pali mafunso ambiri omwe atsala potsimikizira chinsinsi cha machitidwe otere. Izi ndi zomwe timachita kwambiri m'derali. Koma mfundo zoyambirira zadziwika kale.
Dmitriy: Kodi mungatiuze zomwe zidapangitsa akatswiri kuti aphunzire mwatsatanetsatane derali? Kodi iwo anafotokoza bwanji mavuto oyambirira ndi mavuto amene anakumana nawo?
Anton: Ndi nkhani yoseketsa. Monga zimachitika nthawi zonse mu sayansi, tinayamba kuphunzira mutuwo chifukwa udakhala wosangalatsa. Panalibe cholinga chapadera. Pa nthawiyo ankakhulupirira kuti iyi inali njira yotetezedwa mwamtheradi yotumizira deta, ndipo panthawiyo inali yopita patsogolo. Mutu wachitetezo chazidziwitso udayamba kukhala wofunikira, koma kuphatikiza pa izi, tidazindikiranso kuti ndizotheka kupanga mtundu watsopano wamakompyuta pogwiritsa ntchito mitundu yosiyanasiyana ya quantum. Iwo ali ndi luso chidwi ndithu, kuphatikizapo luso kuswa cryptography alipo.
Dmitriy: Nkhani zachitetezo zidabuka kale, mwachitsanzo, pa Cold War. Koma kodi chiyambi cha makampaniwa chinali pafupi ndi kutuluka kwa ma network ambiri?
Anton: Mukunena zowona. Mukhozanso kuyang'ana pa izi. Koma chodabwitsa ndichakuti gawo la quantum cryptography linapezedwa ndi anthu awiri omwe anali ogwirizana kwambiri ndi gawo la IT. Anapereka ntchito yawo yoyamba, yomwe inafotokoza mfundo zazikuluzikulu, pamsonkhano wa IT. Kotero inde, izo zimachokera kumeneko.
Dmitriy: Munalowa bwanji m’munda umenewu? Chilimbikitso chanu chinali chiyani?
Anton: Kunena zowona, zinali zofanana - zinali zosangalatsa. Koma poyamba sindinapite ku quantum cryptography. Ndinayamba ndi . Zinapezeka kuti zovuta pamutuwu sizinali zofunikira pazosowa za labotale, kotero ndidasinthira ku quantum cryptography. Koma kuchita chinthu chimodzi chokha sikusangalatsa kwenikweni, ndipo palinso madera ambiri ogwirizana, choncho sitingathe kunena za luso lapadera la ntchito zathu.
Mwayi kwa asayansi ochokera m'madera okhudzana
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Dmitriy: Ndi titha kunena kuti gulu lochepa la anthu likukhudzidwa ndi mutuwu. Kodi mungayerekeze kuchuluka kwa akatswiri pantchito yanu? Kapena ikadali kalabu yotsekedwa kwambiri?
Anton: Yatsekedwa, koma mu gawo laling'ono chabe. Pali anthu ambiri padziko lapansi omwe akukhudzidwa ndi chiphunzitso cha quantum mu mawonekedwe ake osiyanasiyana. Sindikudziwa momwe ndingawerengere chiwerengero chawo, koma ndithudi ndi anthu oposa makumi atatu omwe anali pamsonkhanowo.
Ndikuganiza kuti ichi sichiri ngakhale chikwi chimodzi mwa onse. Anthu ambiri amapita chifukwa ichi ndi chimodzi mwazinthu zapamwamba kwambiri za sayansi. Masukulu onse otsogola ali nawo quantum information theory kapena quantum optics ndi zinthu zokhudzana nazo. Funso lina ndilakuti ndi anthu angati omwe amizidwa mu niche yapadera ngati kutsimikizira mphamvu zamakina a quantum cryptography.
Derali ndi laling'ono, komabe ndi lalikulu. Sikuti onse amene anapezeka pa msonkhanowo sanali akatswiri otsogola pankhani imeneyi. Pali pafupifupi zana limodzi padziko lonse lapansi. Umboni wa kulimba kwa machitidwe a quantum cryptography adawonekera posachedwa, koyambirira kwa 2000s. Anthu ogwira ntchito m'munda uno adachitapo kale zinthu zina. Mwachitsanzo, quantum optics, kafukufuku wofunikira. Iwo akadali ofunikira. Iwo anabwera kudera lathu kuchokera ku fizikisi.
Palinso omwe amachokera ku chiphunzitso chamakono kapena masamu. Powunika umboni wa kukana, mitundu yosiyanasiyana ya entropy imakhala ndi gawo lalikulu. Komwe amagwiritsidwa ntchito - mu thermodynamics. Anthu omwe amamvetsetsa momwe ma quantum entropies amagwirira ntchito mu chidziwitso cha chidziwitso amatha kugwiritsa ntchito chidziwitso chawo ku quantum thermodynamics. M'modzi mwa asayansi otsogola pankhaniyi, Renato Renner waku Zurich, amaphunzira chiphunzitso cha kuchuluka kwa chidziwitso kumeneko, ndipo ku Santa Barbara amapereka maphunziro a quantum thermodynamics.
Ndi mavuto ati omwe anthu ammudzi amakumana nawo?
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Dmitriy: Ndi mafunso ati omwe mukukonzekera lero? Ndi mavuto ati omwe ali patsogolo? Kodi tsopano chikuyimira bar yomwe ikufunika kusunthira patsogolo?
Anton: Tikhoza kukambirana za izi kuchokera kumbali ziwiri zosiyana. M'malingaliro anga, gawo logwiritsidwa ntchito silikhala losangalatsa. Kugawa kofunikira kwa Quantum kwafika kale pamafakitale, koma aliyense akufuna kumvetsetsa momwe angatsimikizire kuti akulimbana ndi kugawa kwachulukidwe osati china. Kuti muchite izi, ndikofunikira kutsimikizira zida, kotero kuti chitukuko cha miyezo yapadera ndi imodzi mwamavuto akulu padziko lapansi, kuphatikiza gawo laukadaulo. Ambiri mwa asayansi otsogola pankhaniyi akuwongolera zoyesayesa zawo ku izi.
Mbali yachiwiri ya ntchito yathu ndi umboni wa kulimba kwa machitidwe. Zojambula zakale za cryptography zimatengera kuganiza kuti wowukirayo alibe mphamvu zokwanira pakompyuta kuti athe kumasulira zomwe datayo ikadali yovomerezeka. Koma zitha kukhala kuti malingaliro otere sakhala olondola nthawi zonse, chifukwa chake tifunika kusamukira ku paradigm yoteteza deta - kuonetsetsa kuti kuthekera kwa decrypt sikusintha pakapita nthawi.
Tikuchita quantum key distribution. Izi zikutanthauza kuti timagawa kiyi yomwe ikuyenera kugwiritsidwa ntchito kubisa zambiri. Mfungulo yotereyi ikhoza kubedwa, koma tikuyesera kuyambitsa paradigm momwe izi sizingatheke. Ngati panthawi yogawidwa wina alowa mu tchanelo chathu, tidzazindikira nthawi zonse. Ichi ndiye maziko a classical paradigm ya quantum cryptography. Izi zimatheka pogwiritsa ntchito ma photon amodzi.
Iwo ali ndi zinthu zitatu. Awa ndi magawo ochepa a mphamvu; sangathe kugawidwa ndiyeno, mwachitsanzo, kulimbikitsidwa. Sangathe kukopera. Dziko losadziwika la quantum silingathe kukopera, chifukwa chifukwa cha izi liyenera kuyesedwa, ndipo izi sizingachitike popanda kuwononga chiwerengero cha quantum. Tikachiyeza, chimagwa.
Chifukwa cha zinthu izi, mutha kuyang'ana kuthekera kwa wowukira - timamutcha kuti Eva (kuchokera ku eavesdropper) - kuchokera pamalingaliro ena. Timati timapatsa Eva zonse zomwe zingatheke mkati mwa malamulo a physics. Kukumbukira kwa Quantum, zowunikira zabwino - tilibe ngakhale pafupi ndi izi, koma timapereka mwayi wotere. Ndipo ngakhale ali ndi malingaliro awa, tikunena kuti sangalandire zinsinsi zazikulu popanda ife kudziwa. Izi ndi zomwe paradigm ya quantum cryptography idamangidwapo.
Koma zonsezi ndi zabwino bola tikukamba za ma photon amodzi. Komabe, magwero a ma photon amodzi ndi amtengo wapatali, otsika komanso okwera mtengo, kotero palibe amene amawagwiritsa ntchito pochita izi. Onse amagwiritsa ntchito attenuated laser radiation.
Dmitriy: Ndipo izi zikufanana bwanji ndi zomwe mumanena?
Anton: Imasintha paradigm ndi njira yotsimikizira kupirira. Iyi ikadali ntchito yotheka, koma yovuta kwambiri. Munthawi yomwe tikugwiritsa ntchito chinthu chomwe sichili chomwe tingafunike mumikhalidwe yabwino, yomwe ndi mayiko ofooka, tiyenera kuganizira izi muumboni wathu wolimbikira. Tikuchita izi, ndipo dziko lonse lapansi likuyenda mbali iyi.
Dmitriy: Kodi njira iyi imaganizira zida zomwe zili kumapeto kwa njira yolumikizirana?
Anton: Poyambirira, kugawa makiyi a quantum kudagwiritsa ntchito zofananira monga lingaliro lakuti Eva sangalowe m'mabokosi a Alice ndi Bob, koma amangopeza njira yolumikizirana. Uku sikungoyerekeza kotheka. Masiku ano pali quantum hacking. Amatiuza kuti mu fiber optical kapena quantum channel ndizotheka kusintha "zokonda" pogwiritsa ntchito kuwonekera.
Malangizowa amaganiziridwa pa nkhani za certification. Tili ndi labotale yayikulu ku Moscow komwe Vadim Makarov, mwina wotchuka kwambiri "quantum hacker" padziko lapansi, amagwira ntchito. M’maiko ena amachita zimenezi mokangalika. Izi ndi zomwe ndimapeza. Momwe Eva angalowe m'mabokosi athu ndizovuta zaukadaulo. Ndinkadziona ngati wasayansi, choncho ndizosangalatsa kuti ndiyang'ane Eva mosiyana. Mwachitsanzo, phunzirani momwe angalowerere mu njira yolumikizirana ndi kuba chilichonse popanda ife kuzindikira. Ndimakonda kugwira ntchito osati kwa anyamata abwino, Alice ndi Bob, koma kufufuza zomwe zingachitike pamakina ogawa makiyi a quantum.
Chidule Chachidule cha Quantum Hacking
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Dmitriy: Kodi mungafotokoze makhalidwe a kuukira koteroko?
Anton: Makhalidwe ovomerezeka amagawidwa m'magulu atatu. Kuwukira kwapakati pa anthu ndi kofanana ndi kuwukira kwapakatikati (MITM). Mtundu wachiwiri ndiwosamveka bwino, pamene Eva mwanjira ina amalumikizana ndi gawo lililonse munjira yathu ya quantum ndikusunga zotsatira za kuyanjana koteroko kukumbukira kwake. Pambuyo pake, amadikirira njira zomwe Alice ndi Bob amachita kuti agwirizane, amalandira zambiri, amayesa miyeso, ndi zina zotero. Izi ndi ziwonetsero zamagulu, koma pali mtundu wachitatu - wochulukirapo. Kuwunika kwa magawo enieni kumawonjezedwa pamenepo.
Pa mtundu wachiwiri wowukira, timaganiza kuti Alice ndi Bob amagawana ma bits ambiri pakati pawo. Kunena zowona, izi sizingatheke, ndipo tikangopita ku ma voliyumu omaliza, kusinthasintha kwa ziwerengero kumayamba kuwoneka. Mwina akusewera m'manja mwa Hava. Kuwukira kogwirizana kumaganiziranso kutha kwa zinthu. Ichi ndi chinthu chovuta, ndipo sizinthu zonse zogawa makiyi a quantum omwe ali ndi umboni wokwanira wachitetezo.
Ndikofunika kumvetsetsa kuti tikutumiza makiyi ndi kupanga makiyi. Momwe mungawagwiritsire ntchito patsogolo zili ndi inu. Apa ndipamene nkhani za cryptography zimayamba. Ngati mutenga ma aligorivimu amakono ngati kubisa kwa asymmetric, kugwiritsa ntchito makiyi awa, sizothandiza. Njira yokhayo yotsimikizira kukana ndi pad encryption. Ndiye palibe mafunso, koma pa izi muyenera kupanga makiyi nthawi zonse ndikusintha pa uthenga uliwonse. Izi ndizovuta kwambiri.
Chofunikira pakugawa makiyi a quantum ndikuti pazowukira zonse za Eva, titha kugawa kuchuluka kwa magawo omwe Alice ndi Bob okha angadziwe. Eva sadzadziwa za iye. Ichi ndi cholinga chachikulu cha ntchito yathu. Koma ndimakonda kubwera ndi ziwopsezo zotere kotero kuti Alice ndi Bob ali ndi chidaliro pachitetezo chawo, ndipo Eva angakonze chilichonse m'njira yoti alambalale chitetezo.
Simungathe kungotenga ndipo osasokoneza anzanu
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Dmitriy: Zikuoneka kuti ntchito yotereyi patsogolo ingathe kuchotsa mosavuta zotsatira za ogwira nawo ntchito m'mayiko osiyanasiyana?
Anton: Ndi, semina yaku Canada yomwe mudakambirana ndi yomwe ikunena. Kumeneko ndinanena kuti izi ndi zomwe tinachita, zomwe zinapangitsa kuti anthu asamamve bwino. Ndizomveka. Anthu akhala akuchita sayansi kwa zaka makumi awiri ndi zisanu, ndiyeno wina amabwera ndikunena kuti zotsatira zawo sizinali zolondola. Ikuwonetsanso momwe zidzachitikire moyenera. Zinandinyadira kwambiri. Koma ndikukhulupirira kuti tinatha kuchita chiwembu chomwe ambiri samaziganizira kapena kuziganizira.
Dmitriy: Kodi mungalankhulepo ndikuzifotokoza momveka bwino?
Anton: Inde, zedi. Chodabwitsa ndichakuti uku ndikuwukira ndi kutsogolo - chosavuta kwambiri chomwe mungaganizire. Kungoti ndi penapake kusinthidwa ndi zovuta, monga ine ndinganene. Masiku ano, poyang'ana umboni wa kulimbikira, anthu amanena kuti njira zonse za quantum zimangofotokozera kugawidwa kwa chidziwitso pakati pa Alice, Bob ndi Eva.
Chofunikira ndichakuti pakadali pano miyeso yonse ya mayiko a quantum imachitika pambuyo pa kugawa uku. Tikupangira kufotokozera njira yochulukira m'njira yoti imakhala ndi gawo logwirizana ndi zomwe mayiko amasintha ndikuyikidwa pa Bob. Kunena zoona, tili ndi china chake pakati pa njirayo, imayesa kusiyanitsa pakati pa mayiko, zomwe zimasiyanitsa zimatumiza kwa Bob, zomwe sizimasiyanitsa ndi midadada. Kotero, chirichonse chimene chimabwera kwa Bob chimadziwika kwa Eva. Zingawoneke ngati lingaliro lodziwikiratu, koma pazifukwa zina palibe aliyense padziko lapansi amene amalankhula za izo.
Dmitriy: Ndipo mudawonetsa kuthekera kongoyerekeza kuchita chiwembu chotere.
Anton: Inde, ndinalankhula za izi ku Toronto. Tinali ndi makambitsirano amphamvu kwambiri ndi anthu amene akhala akugwira ntchito imeneyi kwa nthaŵi yonse imene ndakhala ndi moyo. Zinali zosangalatsa, chokumana nacho chothandiza kwambiri.
Chifukwa chiyani ndikofunikira kuti musathamangire kufalitsa njira zodzitetezera
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Dmitriy: Kuti mugwiritse ntchito fanizo loyambira ndi ma virus ndi antivayirasi, gawo lanu la zochitika ndi lingaliro limaphatikizapo njira yooneka ngati T kutali ndi njira ya mpikisano wamtundu wina. Kodi tinganene kuti njira yotereyi idzayambitsa mitolo yatsopano yamavuto ndipo iyenera kuthetsedwa pa ndege zina, osati pa imodzi yokha, monga tsopano?
Anton: Funso labwino kwambiri. Ndiyenera kumveka bwino apa. Ndithudi, ine ndiri wofunitsitsa kubwera ndi njira kuwukira. Koma ife tonse timagwira ntchito yogawa makiyi a quantum, timalipidwa, ndipo sitikufuna kuyika mawu m'magudumu athu. Ndizomveka. Mukadzabwera ndi kuwukira kwatsopano pamakina ogawa makiyi a quantum, zingakhale bwino kuti mubwere ndi zotsutsana. Tinachita, tinapeza njira yothanirana nazo. Sizochepa kwambiri, koma zilipo. N’zotheka kufotokoza mavuto amenewa, koma funso lina n’lakuti anthu akapanda kukamba za mavuto, n’zoonekeratu kuti sakuwaganizira. Izi zikutanthauza kuti alibe zotsutsana nazo.
Mu chithunzi:
Dmitriy: Kodi njira imeneyi ndi mtundu wina wa malamulo osayankhulidwa mdera lanu?
Anton: Inde, koma sindikuganiza kuti ndibwino kupereka yankho. Ndikofunikira kudzutsa nkhaniyo. Ndiye wina angapeze njira zothetsera mbali zomwe muli nazo. Ngati mutumiza zonse mwakamodzi, anthu atenga zomwe zakonzeka ndipo sipadzakhala chitukuko cha malingaliro.
Dmitriy: Kodi ndizabwino kunena kuti yankho lanu lingakhale la mtundu wa beta, ndipo penapake pamanja pakhoza kukhala china chake chosangalatsa kwambiri chomwe mwadzisungira nokha?
Anton: Mwina.
Pang'ono pokhudzana ndi kuyanjana ndi mabungwe owongolera
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Dmitriy: Derali lakopa chidwi cha mitundu yonse ya maulamuliro ndi mabungwe azidziwitso. Kodi zonsezi zimatenga nthawi kuti zigwirizane ndi zochitika zilizonse?
Anton: Funso labwino kwambiri! Ndiyesetsa kuyankha mozemba momwe ndingathere. Izi zimatenga nthawi yochuluka yomwe ingagwiritsidwe ntchito pazinthu zasayansi zenizeni. Koma ndimamvetsa chifukwa chake kuli kofunika.
Dmitriy: Monga ndi certification tidakambirana kale. Simungabwereke wothandizira amene angakufotokozereni. Kodi asayansi amayenera kufotokozera zamaguluwo mwachindunji kwa mabungwe onse owongolera ndikuwathandiza kuzindikira?
Anton: Inde, ndizo ndendende. Iyi ndi njira yoyenera. Palibe amene angafotokoze bwino kuposa inu nokha zomwe munachita. Ngati simungathe kuchita izi, pamakhala mafunso okhudza zenizeni zomwe mwakwaniritsa. Koma ngati panali mwayi wochita sayansi yokha, ndikanakonda kuchita sayansi yokha. Koma zonsezi ndi mbali yofunika ya ntchito yathu, imene ifenso timachita.
Dmitriy: Kodi muli ndi nthawi yochitira zinthu zanu?
Anton: Nkhani yovuta. Timapeza nthawi ndikuchita zinthu zina. Izi ndizovuta kwambiri. Tengani quantum teleportation, mwachitsanzo, mwachitsanzo, tikukonzekera zofalitsa pamutuwu. Timatengera zovuta zina, kuchokera ku quantum optics, kuchokera ku quantum information theory. Izi ndi zinthu zosangalatsa. Timayesetsa kupeza nthawi, chifukwa moyo wopanda izo ndi wotopetsa kotheratu. Sizingatheke kuthana ndi mapepala okha. Tiyeneranso kuchita sayansi.
Pakusiyanitsa pakati pa sayansi yoyambira ndi yogwiritsidwa ntchito
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Dmitriy: Ngati muyesa kuyerekezera kuchuluka kwa kusintha m'munda wanu, kuchuluka kwa zofalitsa zasayansi. Kodi zimakhudza bwanji ntchito yanu komanso chidwi ndi mafakitale okhudzana nawo?
Anton: Dera lathu ndi nkhani yovuta kwambiri. Pali zinthu zambiri zakutchire zomwe zikutuluka. Ngakhale chiwerengero cha nkhani zofunikadi n'chochuluka. Ndizovuta kuwatsata onse, ndizosatheka.
Dmitriy: Kodi pali kudalira kwakukulu panjira yolondolera iyi? Kapena kodi ma projekiti anu ali kwaokha mokwanira kuti agwire bwino popanda zododometsa?
Anton: Kudzipatula ndi kungochotsa. Mukaphika mumadzi anuanu, mumasiya kuona zolakwika. Mutha kuganiza kuti mukuchita zonse moyenera, koma pali cholakwika chachikulu chomwe chikukulira kwinakwake komwe mukusowa. Zimakhala bwino ngati padzikoli pali anthu amene amachita zinthu zofanana ndi zimenezi. Ngati mungakwanitse kuchita zinthu zofanana ndi zimenezi pamlingo winawake, ndiye kuti mukuyenda m’njira yoyenera. Ngati zotsatira zikusiyana, ichi ndi chifukwa chokambirana ndikupeza yemwe ali wolondola.
Dmitriy: Koma ntchitoyi imachitika mu bwalo lotsekedwa la anthu? Kodi awa si anthu mazanamazana?
Anton: Zabwino, koma osati nthawi zonse. M'gulu lathu, anthu atatu akugwira nawo ntchito yotsimikizira kulimbikira: ine, mnzanga ndi woyang'anira sayansi. Ngati titenga madera okulirapo - quantum optics, chiphunzitso cha chidziwitso - pali asanu a ife. Ngati tilankhula za quantum key distribution systems, pali anthu ku Moscow, Novosibirsk, Kazan. Koma ku Ulaya ndi ku USA awa ndi magulu akuluakulu amalingaliro.
Dmitriy: Kodi kusiyana kumeneku kumadziwika ndi chiyani?
Anton: Izi ndi njira zosiyanasiyana zopangira sayansi. Yathu ndi yosiyana ndi ya ku Ulaya. Sayansi apa ikutsatira njira ya kafukufuku wogwiritsidwa ntchito, yomwe ikufunika komanso yofunikira pakali pano. Sindikutsutsa njira iyi, koma ndimawona kuti sisayansi kwambiri. Ndimachita chidwi kwambiri ndi Kumadzulo - kusiyana koonekeratu pakati pa sayansi yofunikira ndi yogwiritsidwa ntchito. Pamene palibe chifukwa chofuna zotsatira zilizonse zothandiza kuchokera ku sayansi yofunikira pakali pano. Ndicho chifukwa chake ndizofunikira, kuti musamachite zinthu zomwe zimagwiritsidwa ntchito.
Makamaka, kubwerera ku Zurich. Ili ndi bungwe lalikulu lomwe limachita kafukufuku wofunikira. Anthu amaphunzira zinthu zimene zimatifotokozera mfundo zofunika kwambiri za m’chilengedwe komanso zimatithandiza kuzimvetsa bwino. Amabwera kumeneko chifukwa ndi zomwe akufuna kuchita. Kwa ife, chidwi chimatsagana ndi chosowa, kufunikira kochita chinthu china panthawiyi. Chifukwa chake, pali kusiyana kotere mumalingaliro ndi chitukuko. Izi ndi njira ziwiri zosiyana.
Dmitriy: Kodi chosowa ichi chimadalira pakukonzekera kwa bungwe lolamulira, gulu la asayansi, kapena china chake?
Anton: Izi zimayendetsedwa ndi omwe amagawa ndalamazo. Wolipira amayimba nyimbo. Tikuwona chidwi chochuluka chokhala ndi zida pano komanso pano. Ku Ulaya kuli ndalama zomwe cholinga chake ndi kufufuza kofunikira. Zimatengera omwe amapereka ndalamazo.
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