Shkurtim:
Azat Khadiyev: Mirë se vini. Unë quhem Azat Khadiyev. Jam zhvillues në departamentin PaaS të Mail.ru Cloud Solutions. Më i pranishëm këtu është Pavel Selivanov nga kompania Southbridge. Jemi në konferencën DevOpsDays. Ai do të bëjë një referat mbi mundësitë e ndërtimit të DevOps me Kubernetes, por ndoshta nuk do të funksionojë për ju. Pse një temë kaq pesimiste?
Pavel Selivanov: NĂ« fakt, ajo nuk Ă«shtĂ« kaq pesimiste. Ajo flet pĂ«r problemet qĂ« pĂ«rpiqemi t'i zgjidhim nĂ« komunitetin tonĂ« pĂ«rmes teknologjive. Dhe ne pĂ«rpiqemi t'i zgjidhim ato nĂ« mĂ«nyrĂ« mjaft njĂ«anshme. Kubernetes, po ashtu, Ă«shtĂ« njĂ« sistem qĂ« Ă«shtĂ« pĂ«rgjegjĂ«s, mund tĂ« thuash, pĂ«r Ops. Por kemi njĂ« koncept tĂ« shkĂ«lqyer: Inxhinier DevOps. KĂ«tu pĂ«rgjegjĂ«s pĂ«r Kubernetes Ă«shtĂ« inxhinieri DevOps. NdĂ«rsa⊠Tipikisht ju krijoni Kubernetes, ndĂ«rsa djemtĂ« e Dev nuk janĂ« nĂ« dijeni pĂ«r tĂ« gjitha kĂ«to kubernetes, nuk e dinĂ« se çfarĂ« lejon tĂ« bĂ«sh â dhe gjithçka pĂ«r ta jeton nĂ« tĂ« njĂ«jtĂ«n mĂ«nyrĂ«. Dhe kĂ«tĂ« pavarĂ«sisht se Kubernetes pĂ«rmban zgjidhje tĂ« gatshme, mjete tĂ« gatshme pĂ«r tĂ« pĂ«rdorur kĂ«tĂ« teknologji pĂ«r tĂ« shpĂ«rndarĂ« kĂ«tĂ« qasje DevOps, komunikimin midis Dev dhe Ops. Ne pĂ«rdorim shumĂ« pak kĂ«tĂ« mundĂ«si. PavarĂ«sisht se struktura aktuale pĂ«rkthehet mbi tĂ« gjitha kĂ«to mjete DevOps â Docker, Kubernetes, cloud etj. â ne e pĂ«rkeqĂ«sojmĂ« edhe mĂ« shumĂ« kĂ«tĂ« situatĂ«. Dhe fillojmĂ« tĂ« pĂ«rdorim mjete qĂ« nuk janĂ« menduar pĂ«r mĂ«nyrĂ«n si po i pĂ«rdorim. Rreth tĂ« gjitha kĂ«tyre teknologjive janĂ« ndĂ«rtuar thjesht mbĂ«shtetje tĂ« frikshme.
Azat Khadiyev: E qartë. Ndjehet se tema është e gjerë. Si mendon, cila është problemi më i zakonshëm që kanë kompanitë tani? Me Kubernetes.
Pavel Selivanov: Problemi më i zakonshëm me Kubernetes është mungesa e kompetencave. Në IT kjo është një problem i zakonshëm. Mungojnë gjithmonë specialistët. Mungojnë gjithmonë kompetencat. Dhe tani me Kubernetes shumë kompetenca mungojnë. Përveç kësaj, ka shumë pak zgjidhje 100% të gatshme në treg që mundësojnë që të kesh Kubernetes pa pasur kompetencat e nevojshme. Dhe ato që ekzistojnë, ngjallin shumë pyetje. Vazhdimisht jemi në kërkim të njerëzve që kuptojnë Kubernetes. Po përpiqemi të tërheqim zhvillimin për këtë.
Azat Khadiyev: Considering the current staff shortage in IT, which has always existed and is still present, how do you think one can navigate these conditions? What are some life hacks?
Pavel Selivanov: Life hacks. Firstly, from the perspective of the cloud, a life hack looks like thisâwhy don't you transfer part of your competencies to us? We'll take them and manage them internally. And that's all good. Except for the fact that it's important for those who use this... It's actually a great moment... But it's crucial to understand that by giving away part of your competencies to the cloud or provider, we receive a universal solution in return. To put it bluntly, we may have a database that performs very specific tasks, and it was configured very specifically. By moving this database to the cloud, we can certainly let go of the admin who used to manage the database clustersâAmazon or Google will do it for us. However, the same Amazon or Google wonât allow us to configure our database precisely. Large projects, large companies eventually find themselves using cloud solutions at some stage of their existence and then inevitably return to reclaim their competencies because more specificity is needed.
Azat Khadiyev: Are universal solutions bad, or can more be built on their foundation?
Pavel Selivanov: No, universal solutions are certainly not bad. Universal solutions are good. They are just universal. It's important to understand this. It's like taking a general script⊠If you can build the entire operational logic of a company around this general script and its common applicationsâthen thatâs great. But if the logic is different, and you take this universal solution, this universal script, and start to force it into a different context, thatâs bad. Thereâs nothing inherently wrong with universalism.
Azat Khadiyev: If this admin is already working for you, the issue is not his dismissal. He will simply be able to accomplish more.
Pavel Selivanov: Yes, taking away the routine from him to hand it over to someone else, so that it can be done elsewhere, is undoubtedly a good approach. An important point here is whether this standard solution fits the specific case.
Azat Khadiev: Simple based on my experience, I see that many companies are engaged in the same activities. They set up a Kubernetes cluster, thinking about its scaling. And all these operations are very repetitive.
Pavel Selivanov: Yes, absolutely. Especially since if we take Kubernetes specifically, there is a point that deep, good knowledge of Kubernetes is currently really scarce in the market. And Kubernetes is such a gigantic constructor that if you bring it into a company, be ready to also bring in an engineer who will work full-time on it. And thatâs expensive. And that engineer can be hard to find. If I talk about myself, I donât really like cloud solutions because I understand very well and deeply how Kubernetes works. And often, in the clouds, I lack certain functionalities that I request â and Iâm told "No, thatâs not possible." Well, in that case, sorry, but I can do better than the cloud. But at the same time, if you donât have a full-time engineer, and you donât want to pay for the engineer who manages Kubernetes, and youâre constantly paying him a lot just for experimentation, then the cloud is simply a great solution. Because at least there are guys there whom the provider has already recruited. And they know what they are doing. And the basic things you need on a daily basis are there.
Azat Khadiev: What do you think about the current state of Kubernetes? What will happen to it in five and ten years?
Pavel Selivanov: Kjo Ă«shtĂ« njĂ« pyetje e mirĂ«. Thjesht e di se çfarĂ« po ndodh nĂ« komunitet pĂ«r kĂ«tĂ« çështje. Disa njerĂ«z besojnĂ« se, pĂ«rveç Kubernetes, nuk do tĂ« mbetet gjĂ« tjetĂ«r. Situata qĂ« ndodhi prej kohĂ«sh me Linux. Pra, jashtĂ« Linuxit ka njerĂ«z qĂ« jetojnĂ« nĂ« BSD, tĂ« cilĂ«t ka shumĂ« tĂ« ngjarĂ« tĂ« kenĂ« detyra mjaft specifike. Ka njerĂ«z qĂ« punojnĂ« nĂ«n Windows â serverĂ« Windows â tĂ« cilĂ«t gjithashtu ka shumĂ« tĂ« ngjarĂ« tĂ« kenĂ« detyra specifike, ose thjesht kanĂ« kompetencĂ«n nĂ« kĂ«tĂ« fushĂ« dhe nuk janĂ« tĂ« gatshĂ«m tĂ« largohen nga aty. NĂ« çdo rast, standardi nĂ« fushĂ«n tonĂ« Ă«shtĂ« Linux. Ka mendime qĂ« Kubernetes do tĂ« bĂ«het njĂ« standard de facto, dhe pĂ«rveç Kubernetes nuk do tĂ« ketĂ« asgjĂ« tjetĂ«r. Kubernetes do tĂ« menaxhojĂ« jo vetĂ«m aplikacionet, por edhe shpĂ«rndarjen, implementimin, shkallĂ«zimin. NĂ« fakt, tani po pyesin: "A Ă«shtĂ« e mundur qĂ« nĂ« Kubernetes tĂ« futet njĂ« bazĂ« tĂ« dhĂ«nash?" UnĂ« zakonisht them se kĂ«tu nuk Ă«shtĂ« çështja nĂ« Kubernetes, por nĂ« Docker. NĂ«se jeni tĂ« gatshĂ«m qĂ« baza juaj e tĂ« dhĂ«nave tĂ« punojĂ« nĂ« kontejnerĂ«, si do tĂ« punojĂ« ajo. MĂ« pĂ«rgjigjen: "Jo-jo-jo, prisni. NĂ« kontejnerĂ« nuk Ă«shtĂ« e nevojshme. Duhet nĂ« Kubernetes. Ne do ta lidhim atĂ« me nodin. Pra, gjithçka do tĂ« jetĂ« siç Ă«shtĂ« tani, veçse do tĂ« menaxhohet nga Kubernetes." Dhe nĂ« tĂ« vĂ«rtetĂ«, kjo Ă«shtĂ« njĂ« ide e mirĂ«. Pra, Kubernetes Ă«shtĂ« njĂ« gjĂ« e tillĂ«, kur mund tĂ« shkosh nĂ« kompani, nĂ«se nĂ« kompani ka Kubernetes dhe procese tĂ« ndĂ«rtuara mbi tĂ«, atĂ«herĂ« njĂ« person qĂ« e njeh kĂ«tĂ« do tĂ« mjaftonte tĂ« shikonte pĂ«r disa ditĂ« pĂ«r tĂ« thĂ«nĂ«: "Jam i gatshĂ«m t'ju mbĂ«shtes. NĂ« tĂ«rĂ«si. PlotĂ«sisht. E kuptova se si funksionon çfarĂ« keni kĂ«tu." NĂ« krahasim me qasjet pa Kubernetes â kĂ«tu janĂ« disa mbĂ«shtetje tĂ« shtyra, kĂ«tu janĂ« disa mbĂ«shtetje tĂ« tjera. KĂ«tu Ă«shtĂ« Ansible, kĂ«tu Ă«shtĂ« Terraform. Disa i kanĂ« shkruar kĂ«to, dhe duhet gjashtĂ« muaj pĂ«r t'u kuptuar. Pra, nĂ«se Kubernetes do tĂ« bĂ«het standardi de facto, nuk e di. NĂ« ditĂ«n e sotme, ai duket shumĂ« mĂ« ambicioz dhe i sigurt se zgjidhjet qĂ« janĂ« pĂ«rreth tij.
Azat Khadiyev: Po, krahasimi me Linux Ă«shtĂ« mjaft guximshĂ«m. Ai funksionon nĂ« njĂ« makinĂ« â dhe kaq. NdĂ«rsa Kubernetes funksionon nĂ« shumĂ« makina. MenjĂ«herĂ« lindin milion variacione, arsye. Po, kjo Ă«shtĂ« guximshme. Thjesht nĂ«se merret parasysh se ka konkurrentĂ« pĂ«r kĂ«tĂ« paradigmĂ«. PĂ«r shembull, Serverless. A Ă«shtĂ« Kubernetes nĂ« rrezik pĂ«rballĂ« kĂ«tyre konkurentĂ«ve?
Pavel Selivanov: Nga Serverless⊠(qesh) Serverless â ne kemi gjithmonĂ« njĂ« kuptim se serverĂ« ndoshta ekziston. Kam dĂ«gjuar kohĂ«t e fundit njĂ« prezantim nĂ« lidhje me kĂ«tĂ«. Diku, njĂ« njeri tha se serverĂ«t ndihmonin me tĂ« vĂ«rtetĂ« â dhe kjo Ă«shtĂ« cloud. Por gjithmonĂ« duhet tĂ« kuptojmĂ« se nĂ« cloud â ka gjithashtu serverĂ«. Ka serverĂ« realĂ« metalik, rafte, dhe ato janĂ« diku tĂ« vendosura. Kjo Ă«shtĂ« cloud. Mbi tĂ«, ekziston Serverless, ku serverĂ«sh nuk ka. Prandaj, a do tĂ« dalĂ« fitues Kubernetes Serverless? MĂ« duket se Serverless do tĂ« zhvendoset nĂ« Kubernetes. PĂ«r ofruesit qĂ« ofrojnĂ« Serverless, Kubernetes Ă«shtĂ« njĂ« platformĂ« shumĂ« praktike pĂ«r ta ofruar kĂ«tĂ«. Po, ndoshta, nĂ« njĂ« moment, ne do tĂ« ndalojmĂ« sĂ« foli pĂ«r Kubernetes nĂ« pĂ«rgjithĂ«si, si pĂ«r zhvillimin normal tĂ« aplikacioneve biznesore. Por diku thellĂ«, pĂ«r ofruesit dhe inxhinierĂ«t, Kubernetes do tĂ« jetĂ« aty, ku gjithçka do tĂ« realizohet.
Azat Khadiev: NjĂ« temĂ« pak ndryshe. Ka njĂ« koncept tĂ« tillĂ« si inxhinier fullstack. ĂfarĂ« mendon pĂ«r ta? A ekzistojnĂ« nĂ« tĂ« vĂ«rtetĂ«?
Pavel Selivanov: Em⊠Inxhinier fullstack⊠MĂ« duket se duhet tĂ« ndarim kĂ«to gjĂ«ra nĂ« lidhje me... E di, ka njĂ« gjĂ«, si njerĂ«z me formĂ« T. A janĂ« tĂ« nevojshĂ«m kĂ«ta njerĂ«z nĂ« industrinĂ« e sotme? Po, pa dyshim, na nevojiten njerĂ«z qĂ« kanĂ« njĂ« horizont tĂ« gjerĂ«, por pĂ«r mĂ« tepĂ«r janĂ« specialistĂ« nĂ« njĂ« fushĂ« tĂ« ngushtĂ«. Dhe kĂ«tu inxhinieri fullstack Ă«shtĂ« tĂ« njĂ«jtĂ«n gjĂ« â njĂ« person qĂ« bĂ«n gjithçka. Duke filluar nga zhvillimi i frontend-it, testimi, backend, serverĂ«t dhe gjithçka tjetĂ«r. Nuk besoj se nĂ« njĂ« kompani tĂ« madhe njĂ« person mund ta bĂ«jĂ« kĂ«tĂ« pa specializime tĂ« ngushta nĂ« secilin nga kĂ«ta parametra. Por po ashtu, thjesht duke pasur njĂ« specializim tĂ« ngushtĂ«, siç ndodh rreth kĂ«saj gjĂ«je, nuk di asgjĂ« â kjo gjithashtu nuk funksionon nĂ« botĂ«n moderne. Pra, kĂ«tu do tĂ« thosha... do ta lija fjalĂ«n Fullstack. Na nevojiten inxhinierĂ« shumĂ«. Na duhen DevOps. Kam ndjesinĂ« se sĂ« shpejti do ta rishikojmĂ« kĂ«tĂ« moment. Dhe ata do tĂ« bĂ«hen tĂ« panevojshĂ«m.
Azat Khadiev: A mund të shpjegosh më shumë?
Pavel Selivanov: MĂ« duket se industria jonĂ« do tĂ« arrijĂ« nĂ« atĂ« pikĂ« qĂ« kĂ«to role Dev dhe Ops do tĂ« zhduken sĂ« shpejti. NĂ«se na duhen specialistĂ« dhe ne jemi duke kĂ«rkuar... Duhet njĂ« programues i tillĂ«, na duhen administratorĂ« tĂ« tillĂ«, na duhen inxhinierĂ« DevOps â tani i kemi, do tĂ« shfaqen edhe inxhinierĂ«t e prodhimit, inxhinierĂ«t SRE. SidoqoftĂ«, ajo qĂ« na nevojitet nĂ« tĂ« vĂ«rtetĂ« janĂ« inxhinierĂ«t qĂ« duam tĂ« punĂ«sojmĂ«. Pasuria e tyre nuk Ă«shtĂ« aq e rĂ«ndĂ«sishme. Sepse... PĂ«r shembull, SRE thotĂ« se problemet e infrastrukturĂ«s gjithmonĂ« janĂ« softuerike. Dhe çfarĂ«... Le t'i marrim programuesit â nga pikĂ«pamja qĂ« programuesi Ă«shtĂ« inxhinier â t'i vendosim ata nĂ« departamentin e mbĂ«shtetjes dhe ata do tĂ« zgjidhin kĂ«to probleme ashtu siç zgjidhin problemet e biznesit me anĂ« tĂ« kodit, me anĂ« tĂ« inxhinierisĂ«, si tĂ« tillĂ«.
Azat Khadiev: Dhe nga ky këndvështrim... Si të intervistojmë këta inxhinierë?
Pavel Selivanov: Oh, thatâs a good question. It is probably beyond what I understand in this life. But I can give an example. It doesn't relate to the interview. It's about our education system in Russia. In IT, we know that our education system in Russia is very outdated for the IT world; it's not what it should be. Iâm talking generally about vast Russia â and what happens there. People graduate who are completely unprepared to go into web development or a tech company right after graduation. And that's a problem. We teach them some strange things, whereas we should be teaching them to develop for Android, for iOS, and how to use Git and all these things. In reality, it seems like we donât. College is a time when your parents mostly pay for you. For your entire life. And you can spend five years of your life studying in depth. And learning all this T-shaped stuff. When you can study in college what a version control system is, what development patterns there are, how to test all of this, what databases and load balancers exist. And when you start working, you begin to delve into a specific area. And in this way, we get engineers. And our education system in Russia is much closer to this truth than we think. We get good mathematical training, good algorithmic training, and some understanding of programming languages. And regarding the interview, it seems to me something close to this. We need to interview engineers. We need the upper part of the T-shaped. Because the vertical line of the T will be acquired.
Azat Khadiyev: Yes, interesting. For five years after college, I thought my education was somewhat strange and inadequate. But then, as I worked and the tasks became deeper and projects bigger, I realized that no, I was taught very important things. Pavel, thank you. It was very interesting to hear your answers. We will listen to your presentation.
Pavel Selivanov: Thank you.
Burimi: habr.com
